Wisdom and Vanity

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Message de theoto posté le 2004-09-30 13:48:10 (S | E | F | I)
The wise man's eyes are in his head;
but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all.
Then said I in my heart, As it happeneth to the fool, so it happeneth even to me; and why was I then more wise ?
Then I said in my heart, that this also is vanity.

For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten.

And how dieth the wise man? as the fool.

Réponse: re:Wisdom and Vanity de elibarclo, postée le 2004-10-01 11:35:42 (S | E)
Your problem is purely theological . In my opinion and far from philosophy we must stay down-to-earth . A wise man will be always a wise and a fool will be always a fool. Only the wise can consider himself as a conceited person, because he can judge the fool and perhaps himself . But the opposite is impossible , the fool won't be able to a valuable judgment . We are obliged to accept that the nature (or God) give us . Nobody is the same and eveyone has his luck in his life.
Your problem is purely theological . In my opinion and far from philosophy we must stay down-to-earth . A wise man will be always a wise and a fool will be always a fool. Only the wise can consider himself as a conceited person, because he can judge the fool and perhaps himself . But the opposite is impossible , the fool won't be able to a valuable judgment . We are obliged to accept that the nature (or God) give us . Nobody is the same and eveyone has his luck in his life.

Réponse: re:Wisdom and Vanity de serena, postée le 2004-10-01 12:20:19 (S | E)
To elibarclo : A fool finds himself wiser than a "normal" man. His difference starts by the fact that men leave him apart because they don't like his way of behaving, saying it's not in agreement with their own ones. Which can sometimes be worse. ( This is my opinion. )

To theoto : You sent many messages of this kind. They are somehow wise. But what I'd like to ask you is : Why not trying to explain it better to us ? You know, most of us don't really understand english poems. So please, it'll be a great help and very useful if you try to do.

I'm going to start by asking you to tell me in "simple" English what you mean by this sentence ( or verse ).

but the fool walketh in darkness: and I myself perceived also that one event happeneth to them all.

Why is it written "walketh" and "happeneth".
What does the author mean by the whole "verse". ( Is it really a poem ? )

Thanks for starting learning us advanced English ! I hope you'll do.

See you !

Réponse: re:Wisdom and Vanity de yannloic, postée le 2004-10-01 16:20:32 (S | E)
This quote comes from Ecclesiastes 2:14 and more. Doesn't it ?

Ecclesiastes is a book of the Bible the name of which is a latinized derivation of the Hebrew Qohelet [the Preacher].

It was traditionally ascribed to Solomon (who is identified as the author in the text). But it was clearly written much later (c.300 B.C.).

The book takes issue, with the confident assertions of the Wisdom tradition exemplified by Sirach (Ecclesiasticus) and Proverbs, both of which stress the possibility of leading a life in harmony with cosmic order.

For the writer life bears no order and no meaning. Omnipresent wickedness and death are realities which mock all effort to find meaning and purpose in life. Moreover, the purposes of God cannot be fathomed.

To summarize Ecclesiastes is one of the biblical examples of wisdom literature, the wisdom of Solomon you know the one who wanted to cut in two the baby two women said he was her son.

Ecclesiastes is one of the biblical examples of wisdom literature
Ecclesiastes is one of the biblical examples of wisdom literature

Réponse: re:Wisdom and Vanity de elbisee, postée le 2004-10-01 18:44:00 (S | E)
Hello all!

This excerpt (and all of Theoto's postings so far) are from what is known as the King James Version of the Bible. It's named after the English king who commissioned the translation. It was completed in 1611, so it's a near contemporary of Shakespeare's works. What you're seeing isn't precisely advanced English--more like archaic English. Many English-speakers prefer it for its poetic sound, in spite of the existence of more recent and more accurate translations.

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Edité par elbisee le 2004-10-01 19:56:41

Réponse: re:Wisdom and Vanity de yannloic, postée le 2004-10-01 19:02:35 (S | E)
I have heard about the King James translation of the Bible. I wasn't sure. elbisee thank you for the precision. Have you ever read it ?

Réponse: re:Wisdom and Vanity de elbisee, postée le 2004-10-02 02:32:00 (S | E)
Hello, Yannloic!

Yes indeed, I have read it.

You're right about the source of the citation; it's Ecclesiastes 2:14-16. Here's an updated version (you could almost call it an English-to-English translation!):

The wise have eyes in their head, but fools walk in darkness. Yet I perceived that the same fate befalls all of them. Then I said to myself, "What happens to the fool will happen to me also; why then have I been so very wise?" And I said to myself that this also is vanity. For there is no enduring remembrance of the wise or of fools, seeing that in the days to come all will have been long forgotten. How can the wise die just like fools?

This is from the New Revised Standard Version, published in 1989. The English language had changed a lot in 378 years!

Are there many different French translations of the Bible in use?

Réponse: re:Wisdom and Vanity de elibarclo, postée le 2004-10-02 09:19:02 (S | E)
O2/IO/04 ;To Serena Certainly, you are right. The fool is probably glad in his behaviour and he is often pushed aside ; it's why a lot of people are not interested by him , hence the vanity of all these people they think they are better than him .The vanity would be banned.The wise must help this one who cannot do more than he can ; The issue stays very difficult in the world, where we live :for instance, how doing so that everybody could soothe his conscience for a better world ?

Réponse: re:Wisdom and Vanity de yannloic, postée le 2004-10-03 23:39:04 (S | E)
Of course there are a lot of bible's french translation. But I'm not competent enough to tell you the value of tese transaltions.

I got one only "La bible ancien testamentbtraduction oecuménique texte intégral" from the "livre de poche edition". But I can't say you how worth it is.

Réponse: re:Wisdom and Vanity de serena, postée le 2004-10-04 04:04:08 (S | E)
Hello !

Elbicarlo, thanks for 02/10/04 !
About what you said, I quite agree with you. But you're asking me to answer a very difficult question.
I'm not sure we'll one day be able to change anything. If we refer to some sociologists, we'll say that God created human being just like Him, but human society had been created like His enemy. Inspite of all the advice He gave us, taking as an example theoto text from the bible ( thank you elbisee, now I understand better ), human society is very far from being better. As only a few wants it to be fair, it's hard to fight alone against a huge community.
Let's say that we must go on our own way, by trying to give as much love as possible, without caring about anyone social level or anything which could make him different from the others. For me, this is the best way to set up equality.

Réponse: re:Wisdom and Vanity de elibarclo, postée le 2004-10-05 11:32:10 (S | E)
06/IO/04 to Serena . Thanks for your answer. We must accept the world as it is . In view of my age, my philosophy is to follow the life like a long and quiet river . Until now , the life has been good for me and I wish it is the same for you, including your future . so long.l

Réponse: re:Wisdom and Vanity de serena, postée le 2004-10-05 13:03:06 (S | E)
Thanks to you, elbicarlo !
I'll never say life hasn't been good to me, regarding what's happening all over the world. Surely not a very calm river, but a very instructive as well as constuctive one ! For the moment !

See you soon !

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