IL L'A FAIT!!!

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Message de mariet posté le 2004-08-14 13:32:37 (S | E | F | I)
Un exploit de plus à ajouter au crédit de notre webmaster préféré : hier nous doutions de pouvoir utiliser l'alphabet phonétique... dès aujourd'hui c'est possible!!! Qui c'est le plus génial des webmasters ???
Merci! ks

Réponse: re:IL L'A FAIT!!! de bridg, postée le 2004-08-14 13:45:44 (S | E)
merci de m'avoir je me demandais pourquoi cette barre était arrivée ...non ne pas!!

Réponse: re:IL L'A FAIT!!! de dolivera, postée le 2004-08-14 14:01:22 (S | E)
Je me joins à Mariet pour dire un GRAND MERCI ET BRAVO à notre webmaster chéri.

Réponse: re:IL L'A FAIT!!! de nanis, postée le 2004-08-14 19:08:50 (S | E)
ah yes trop cool j'avais pas vu! je viens de remarquer c'est cool pour la prononciation!
bravo!

Réponse: re:IL L'A FAIT!!! de mariet, postée le 2004-08-14 22:33:11 (S | E)
DE PLUS EN PLUS FORT ! Maintenant on peut même les écouter avant de les utiliser. Je crois qu'il va falloir créér un nouveau sujet : trouver des qualificatifs applicables à notre webmaster à nous !!!

Réponse: re:IL L'A FAIT!!! de traviskidd, postée le 2004-08-14 23:19:07 (S | E)
Not to seem unappreciative to the webmaster, but I would like to make the following comments/suggestions regarding the pronunciation symbols.

1. It would be great to have them as part of the font rather than as pictures.

2. The white background is a little annoying.

3. While IPA is good for handling many languages at once, I think those learning English should have a system that is designed especially for English. Might I suggest one such system, based mainly on the dictionaries I used as a child, but also taking into account which characters which can be dispayed here in the forums.

Consonants:

b - bog
ch - chew
d - dog
dh - that
f - fog, rough, phone
g - fog
h - hog
j - jog
k - key
l - log
m - man
n - man
ng - thing
nk - think
p - put
r - rut
s - sog
sh - shoe
t - tag
th - think
v - vat
w - wait
y - yes
z - zebra
zh - pleasure

Short vowels:

a - bat, have
ä - father (This sound is the same as "o", but it is better expressed this way when spelled with the letter A.)
e - bet
i - bit
o - hot (also father, see above)
ô - bought, all, August, awful, (This sound is not much different from "o". Some people might not even distinguish them.)
û- put, foot
u - nut, love, flood

The schwa:

- about, liven, cabin, bacon, continuum (Note: sounds like the short U, or sometimes the short I.)

Long vowels:

ā - face
ē - feet
ī - life
ō - home
ü - tube, new, do, move, food
ū - unique, few (ū = yü )

Vowels modified by R:

ar - car
er - air
ir - beer
or - for
ur - burn, herd, heard, bird, work
r - grammar, under, (i can't think of a word with -ir), favor, imprimatur

diphthongs
ou - house
oy - toy

I think I have taken all the sounds of English into account. If not, let me know which ones I've missed!
(ī thēnk ī hav tāk-n ôl dh soundz v ēng-lish in-tü -kount. if not, let mē nō wich wunz īv mist!)

At any rate, this is just a suggestion. Of course, one could use IPA to describe the symbols I've mentioned. But once my system (or a similar one) is understood I think it is better than IPA in expressing the pronunciation of English words.

-------------------
Edité par traviskidd le 2004-08-14 23:38:34

Réponse: re:IL L'A FAIT!!! de traviskidd, postée le 2004-08-14 23:34:22 (S | E)
Zut! My long vowels didn't display correctly!

They are supposed to be the letters with little horizontal lines over them.
_ _ _ _ _
a e i o u

Strange ... they worked when I was writing the message.

Another suggestion to the Webmaster: would it be possible for us to preview our messages before posting them?

Réponse: re:IL L'A FAIT!!! de webmaster, postée le 2004-08-15 10:42:56 (S | E)
hello, traviskidd!

thanks for your message.
1) Your system is good, but French learners (should) already learn the IPA system at school.
Thus, I think that using two different systems is not a good idea. It would bring a lot of problems. Learning the IPA system is already difficult.

2) you can preview your message by clicking on "preview/aperçu".

3) the white box behind can be removed and these symbols can have the same size, but I would like to see first if members will use these symbols... before taking the time to improve them.

Thanks

Réponse: re:IL L'A FAIT!!! de alexpopov67, postée le 2004-08-15 17:20:34 (S | E)
Mariet a raison merci webmaster, en plus de créer le meilleur des sites pour l'apprentissage de l'anglais, il arrive à l'améliorer encore tous les jours, Bravo WEBMASTER !!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

Réponse: re:IL L'A FAIT!!! de traviskidd, postée le 2004-08-15 17:40:04 (S | E)
1)

Ok. It's very interesting that French students learn IPA at school! I didn't realize that.

The advantage to my system would be that it could in fact help in guessing the pronunciation of certain words without the use of symbols.

For example, i'm sure everyone knows the rule that in a CVC word like "bit" the vowel is pronounced short, but in a CVCe word like "bite", the vowel is pronounced long and the e is silent.

Of course the rules have many exceptions. Nevertheless they are useful in guessing the pronunciation of new words.

If one already knows that the short I is pronounced and the long I is pronounced , then all he needs to know is whether in a given word the I should be pronounced short or long (or some other way). And my system would give this information concisely.

Of couse, everyone would have to agree on the same system, and to my knowledge there is no "standard" system like IPA for English specifically. But I was thinking perhaps we on the forum could agree on one.

But it's just a suggestion.

2) Ah! If I had known the word "Aperçu" I would have saved myself a lot of trouble!

3) Would it be possible to include more support for Unicode? It seems strange that certain characters appear correctly when I'm typing the message, but not when the message is actually displayed in the forum.

Réponse: re:IL L'A FAIT!!! de traviskidd, postée le 2004-08-15 17:44:36 (S | E)
āēīōū

This is just a test. The characters above appeared correctly in the "Aperçu du message".

Réponse: to traviskidd de mariet, postée le 2004-08-15 18:54:29 (S | E)
IPA stands for INTERNATIONAL Phonetic Alphabet.
This means it deals with the pronounciation of words whatever their nationality. Those symbols are used by ordinary dictionaries, for instance if I open a Larousse the phonetic transcription between a word and its definition is in IPA code, and so is the transcription in the Harrap's or the other monolingual dictionaries in British English that I use, same with Spanish or German dictionaries. It enables anybody from whatever country to 'read' the same word (each dictionary gives a table of the symbols). Surprisingly enough, though, the American dictionaries I search occasionally are the only ones I came across that do not use IPA but the transcription code you refer to.
Did you have a look at the links I sent you about that topic ?

Réponse: checking up! de monik, postée le 2004-08-16 00:54:50 (S | E)
m st checking ... le [e] que je voudrais n'est pas là?... c'est le [3] retourné... J'ai aussi un problème avec les espaces...
En tous les cas, cet alphabet phonétique est super... est-il à portée de main pour faire les fiches/leçons??
Autre remarque : je ne suis pas tout à fait convaincue que tous les français sachent utiliser cet alphabet... même en université, est-ce que c'est réellement enseigné de partout? Et dans les lycées???
Ceci dit c'est un excellent outil à savoir manipuler pour lire le dictionnaire... et toutes les langues utilisant cet alphabet Pour ceux qui n'ont jamais regardé : aller dans le dictionaire==> ce qui est entre [crochet] est de la phonétique : alphabet =['ælfəbɛt]=
[ lf b3t]

Réponse: to mariet de traviskidd, postée le 2004-08-16 00:56:26 (S | E)
Yes I know what IPA stands for. My point is, if we are going to use a system of phonetic transcription especially for English, wouldn't it make more sense to use one that was made especially for English, rather than an international one?

Another advantage is that (as you know so well) there are many different English accents. When an Australian says day, I hear die. However, the Australian and I will both agree that the AY in day is a long A sound.

Hence it would be appropriate to say that in the Australian accent, a long A is pronounced , whereas in the American accent, the long A is pronounced .

It would be cumbersome to use IPA and have to list for every word the different accents with which it can be pronounced. Maybe there could be a table in front, where each sound recognized in English (such as the long A) could be given its IPA pronunciation in different accents. Then, in the dictionary itself, only the long A is shown in the phonetic transcription.

My point really is that English-speakers recognize each sound in English as being a long A, a short I, etc. (even if in fact many of us are horrible at grammar and don't know what to call each sound), and to have good English pronunciation, you need to be willing to recognize English sounds in the same way they are recognized by English-speakers.

I saw the links you sent. While interesting in and of themselves, I don't see what they have to do with whether (or not) we use IPA here.

Réponse: re:IL L'A FAIT!!! de mariet, postée le 2004-08-16 01:17:18 (S | E)
Why should we use it only for English ? Some people, as you know ;) , are here to learn French. Wouldn't it be useful for them to have a phonetic transcription of French words too when necessary ?
On the other hand, as I've said many times before, I think it would be a good thing to have an indication of some kind so that people who are learning English knew, when an answer is given, whether it is about Australian, British or American English (... or even Frenglish at times).

Réponse: re:IL L'A FAIT!!! de traviskidd, postée le 2004-08-16 03:43:47 (S | E)
In fact when learning French you should have a phonetic system that is designed especially for French!! If I had one I'm sure my French pronunciation would be much better than it is!!

In fact it's not quite as necessary for French as for English, because French already puts accents on its vowels, and one can fairly well guess the pronunciation of a word (even unpronounced letters) by looking at it. But yet it would be nice to know all the different sounds French speakers recognize as the sounds of their language, and how French words would appear as a sequence of French sounds.

I don't know French well enough to be able to distinguish all of the different sounds (are en and on the same or different?), so I couldn't make a list. But certainly we could say parler = [parlé], and we could debate whether parlait = [parlé] or [parlè], etc. This would be more difficult, or at least less natural, in IPA.

Réponse: re:IL L'A FAIT!!! de mariet, postée le 2004-08-16 04:47:52 (S | E)
Maybe you could try this :
http://phonetique.free.fr/indexvir.htm

Réponse: re:IL L'A FAIT!!! de traviskidd, postée le 2004-08-16 05:24:56 (S | E)
It's a little better but it doesn't tell me which sounds correspond to which letters. I would prefer to see all the sentences written phonetically. (IPA if necessary, but preferably a system more suited specifically to French.)

Réponse: re:IL L'A FAIT!!! de traviskidd, postée le 2004-08-16 05:33:46 (S | E)
Here is something a little closer to what I'm thinking of. But I don't like the symbols they use. (I don't think it's IPA, is it?) Whatever the system, allez should be written as é.

http://www.fonetiks.org/sou2fr.php

Réponse: re:IL L'A FAIT!!! de yannloic, postée le 2004-08-16 05:44:37 (S | E)
Absent pendant 15 jours, je découvre encore du nouveau sur le site.

C'est une bonne idée même si je n'aime pas trop ce système qui est difficille à utiliser pour des phrases.

Je reprend la balle au bon. Serait-il possible d'ajouter un bouton permettant d'ajouter un fichier de son (mp3 par exemple) échantilloné à faible vitesse (10k par exemple), en quantité limité (avec un quota par utilisateur ou pour les membres gold) afin de permettre d'enregistrer un mot, une phrase ou un paragraphe court et l'envoyer sur un forum. Il serait possible d'enregistrer à l'aide d'un micro chez soi, en local un petit morceau de son afin d'en faire profiter les autres.

Ceci permettrait d'entendre un vrai Anglophonant ou Francophonant parler correctement avec l'accent.

Je percois bien les problèmes techniques en particulier en volume occupé, mais ce serait à mon avis vraiment un plus pour l'apprentissage oral.

Réponse: re:IL L'A FAIT!!! de mariet, postée le 2004-08-16 07:09:04 (S | E)
Navrée, Traviskidd mais je ne parviens pas à comprendre pourquoi nous devrions abandonner une transcription internationale au prétexte que ce n'est pas celle qu'utilisent les Etats-Uniens. En outre c'est déjà un exploit que Webmaster ait pu mettre celle qui existe à notre disposition. Je comprends que tu aies ton point de vue. Je ne changerai pas le mien. Donc je préfère arrêter là cette discussion.
En toute amitié.

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