Multiple versions of English

<< Retour au forum || Aller tout en bas

English only
All your questions about the English language, no French allowed.

Ce sujet est fermé, vous ne pouvez pas poster de réponses

Multiple versions of English
Message de ourimba posté le 26-09-2005 à 17:14:13 (S | E | F | I)
Learning another language has given me a much better understanding of my own language (English) and I have come to realize that there are actually 3 versions of English that I speak, and consequently 3 versions of French which I must learn.

Actually, since I am an Australian living in Texas, there are 6 versions of English that I speak, but that's not important here.

So for any region, for example where I live in Austin Texas we understand and speak:

1) News English - How the news broadcasters speak - this is pretty much the same throughout the country: neutral accent, speaking slowly and clearly, fairly limited vocabulary.

2) Formal English - This is how I speak at work, or how someone would speak if interviewed on the news. Regional accent, faster.

3) Social English - The language spoken among friends and family. Much faster, more slang, abbreviated phrases, etc.

There are obviously many regional variations as well, but for the purposes of this discussion I am assuming a single region. For example, I'm sure I would understand very little of the social english spoken in rural Ireland.

So when listening to spoken French I have found that I'm pretty much OK with understanding "News French" - I can get by, but struggle sometimes with "Formal French" and understand very little Social French.

I was chatting with a French friend last week, and he said that he does much better speaking with foreign English speakers than native English speakers, because foreign speakers speak slower and have a more universal vocabulary.

Yet in order to be fluent in another language, it seems to me we must be able to understand the language as spoken in social situations (at least that is my goal) yet for those of us that do not live in the target language country this is a very difficult undertaking. There are many resources to help us with News and Formal language, but I am not aware of any systematic way (besides immersion) of learning Social language.

I would love to hear other peoples thoughts on this, and if they know of any resources that would help.

By way of helping each other, perhaps I could make recordings of some of my Social English conversations and post them to this site (with written translations) and maybe some of you French speakers could do the same.

-------------------
Edité par bridg le 26-09-2005 17:32
titre

-------------------
Edité par ourimba le 26-09-2005 18:18

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de lucile83, postée le 27-09-2005 à 09:26:31 (S | E)
Hello,

That's a very interesting topic ; I'll think about that and give a longer answer; could anyone suggest anything ?
See you soon

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de fairlie, postée le 27-09-2005 à 15:03:16 (S | E)
I have the same issue. I try to watch at least one French film a week. It helps that I can pause and re-wind. I can now usually understand about two thirds of what is said. It helps that I usually watch with my bilingual French neighbor and that we choose films with my limited comprehension in mind. L'auberge Espagnol was great! Try not to use the sub-titles because if you are like me, it is far easier to read than to listen.
On the weekend I actually watched a tv in Paris, on the webcam of a friend there. we were able to chat about what was happening as we watched....leading me to wonder; how did people ever learn languages in the "old days"?
Good luck!

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de traviskidd, postée le 27-09-2005 à 15:13:28 (S | E)
I too have often wondered how languages were translated long ago. Of course there is the famous Rosetta Stone. But other than that ... for example, were there people who spoke Old French who wanted to learn Old English, and did they form a club where they could, for example, read Beowulf together? Mind you, this was not only pre-Internet but pre-Gutenberg!

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de romanne, postée le 27-09-2005 à 16:49:53 (S | E)
Hello

Ourimba , I think your idea is very good and I'd like to record such things in French for people who might be interested. There would be a good mix of accents as my husband speaks with a south-west accent. My sons have been growing up in Marseille , and I have an accent that foreigners usually understand more easily, as I was born inParis. I just don't how to do that. What software is necessary?

Fairlie, my elder son ( 17) does the same thing as you. He watches DVDs ( Friends, at the moment ... ) with English subtitles whenever that's possible and I help him to understand what is being said. IThen he watches these DVDs again but without subtitles. I think you are right. L' Auberge Espagnole is a great film if you want to hear social French. ( But also other languages ) Hope you'll soon be able to see the second part, called Les Poupées Russes, which is even better, I think!

Traviskidd, you know what? I had to read Beowulf when I was at University in Paris! You are right, those were Pre-something times!

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de fairlie, postée le 27-09-2005 à 17:20:17 (S | E)
Thankyou! I have put on my list for what to rent next. If you have other suggestions for films that are somewhat "eclectic" like that, (not taxing my poor brain too much with solid French) I would be grateful.
As for Beowulf, I think I had to read it too...thankgod for selective amnesia!

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de romanne, postée le 30-09-2005 à 18:27:16 (S | E)
Hello Fairlie

Have you seen these films? I thought you might like them.
Le Fabuleux destin d''Amélie Poulain
Un long dimanche de fiançailles
Les Choristes
Le Hussard sur le toit
Mademoiselle ( de Philippe Lioret )

Il y en a plein d'autres, mais il faut que je réléchisse!
A bientôt. There are a lot of them but I have to think about that ; see you soon
-------------------
Edité par lucile83 le 01-10-2005 07:08
oops ! you are on the "English only" forum

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de traviskidd, postée le 01-10-2005 à 03:25:09 (S | E)
I saw Amélie ... it was a great movie! The only problem for me, is that I was continually trying to match the spoken French with the English subtitles to see if they really matched, and so I had trouble simply enjoying the movie!

But I really liked the traveling garden gnome!

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de romanne, postée le 01-10-2005 à 13:39:18 (S | E)
Hello,

So sorry for writing a few French words on the wrong forum! I didn't even know which one it was actually.... So yes, there are many of them and I'll have to think about it.

Traviskidd, what did you think of Audrey Tautou's accent? Would you say that the dialogues are difficult to understand? I have trouble deciding which films can be more easily understood . For example there is a beautiful film by Robert Guediguian called 'Marie-Jo et ses Deux amours' , though it is not as funny as Amélie, far from that ... But it takes place in Marseilles and the actors have a special accent... I didn't think it was difficult as people here ( that's where I live ) pronounce all the syllables more clearly than , say, people from Paris or from the north of France. But there are people who have told me this accent may be a bit of a problem , probably because this is not the one you are taught when you study French as a foreign language.

I also loved the garden gnome... What's funny is that Montmartre is really as it is in the film. I know that there are tours organised for foreign visitors to see where Amélie 'lives'...
-------------------
Edité par lucile83 le 01-10-2005 15:40
Please notice that the name of the city is "Marseilles" in English except if you write it in an address : Vieux Port - 13000 Marseille.
Sorry for that tiny detail and hope you find it worth learning

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de lepingouin, postée le 02-10-2005 à 17:47:30 (S | E)
Re the original post, I've also found that people who are speaking a second language understand other learners of it better than they do the native speakers. On a similar note, I've spoken to foreigners in English but with their accent, and they always say it sounds clearer.

I always keep my eyes peeled for French films on UK terrestrial TV!

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de ourimba, postée le 03-10-2005 à 17:25:22 (S | E)
Lot's of good ideas here. Thanks guys.

(By the way - in America they use the term "guys" to refer to a group of people which can be either male or female. It took me a while to get comfortable with this )

I took romanne's advice and watched l'auberge Espagnole this weekend (sans sous titres) and I understood most of the French (and all of the English ) and none of the Spanish! So that was good.

Romanne, I'll figure out what is required to make decent quality voice recordings and post them to this forum and will report back ASAP = as soon as possible ).

Do you folks find watching a movie with no sub titles first, then repeating with sub titles is best, or the other way round?

Great forum, thanks for the exchange.

-------------------
Edité par lucile83 le 04-10-2005 07:57

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de romanne, postée le 03-10-2005 à 21:54:47 (S | E)
Hello guys!! (Won't say it in French as this is the English only forum! )

Ourimba , do you speak Russian? because when you watch 'Les poupées russes' , with the same people as in L'auberge Espagnole, except that they are in their thirties, you'll also hear a bit of Russian as well... Don't know when the DVD will be available though. I saw that film in June.

When I watch American or English films ( as I am French) , I start with no subtitles, because I find that my eyes are attracted to what's written and I won't make the necessary effort. The problem is that with some DVDs here in France ( or should I say with most of them ), you don't really have a choice... It's either in French or in English with French subtitles... But we are lucky because we have all your films here, whereas it seems to be a bit more difficult for you to find French movies... There are plenty of movies I could suggest but I couldn't find them on Amazon.com nor on Amazon.co.uk.

Thank you Ourimba for telling us how to make those recordings . That's a real good idea. I look forward to listening to yours and doing the same thing.

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de fairlie, postée le 05-10-2005 à 12:51:25 (S | E)
Thank you for the film suggestions. I loved Amélie but I saw it long before I started this impossible quest to learn French, so I watched it in English! Other films I really liked; Dinner de Contes, Ma Vie en cinemascope, Maman last call....not exactly fabulous examples of cinema or anything, but somewhat understandable French. Do the French capitalize film titles? I find the whole capitalization thing very confusing too.
-------------------
Edité par lucile83 le 05-10-2005 15:40
I don't correct "Dinner de Contes" because Romanne answered in a post below.

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de fairlie, postée le 05-10-2005 à 12:54:05 (S | E)
Just thought of something else. When there are subtitles and none are wanted, I tape a strip of black paper to the bottom quarter of the tv. I know it sounds drastic but it works.

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de romanne, postée le 05-10-2005 à 15:05:20 (S | E)
Hello ,

Thanks for the idea , Fairlie. Not exactly cutting-edge technology, but quite effective! Otherwise, you are right , you can't help reading those subtitles...

Yes, I think we often capitalize film titles... probably because we are taught that we have to do that when giving the title of a book. Well, apparently you don't do the same. I had never noticed that actually.

You talked about Le dinner de contes . I think you mean ' Le dîner de cons' . ( un conte is a tale, and un con is quite different! It is a swear word to refer to someone you don't like and find stupid... ) So your version was a bit softer!

Here are other titles. OK , I won't capitalize them, unless it is necessary.
Have you seen them these movies?

Jean de Florette
Manon des sources ( Both films take place in the south of France, so you'll hear a southern accent ) You have to see Jean de Florette first.

Indochine
Cyrano de Bergerac
Le goût des autres

They are all very different. Maybe your French neighbour knows them.

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de romanne, postée le 05-10-2005 à 16:53:06 (S | E)
Sorry, I made a mistake when typing!... 'them these movies' sounds a bit strange. Have you seen these movies then? (or them movies in very informal English ... )

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de fairlie, postée le 07-10-2005 à 12:54:44 (S | E)
I am adding them to my list, thanks again! My problem with con vs. conte typifies exactly why I will never really be able to learn French. I cannot think and speak or write French at the same time! I have to choose, either I have to stick with infantile conversation, and make few mistakes or say something a bit interesting and make dozens of significant errors. I can only take solace in the fact that I provide much comic relief to my French friends, who are thankfully; much, much nicer than the real idiots in that film (and I am not talking about the cons).

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de lepingouin, postée le 08-10-2005 à 13:35:53 (S | E)
I've seen Jean de Florette and Manon des Sources, and I thought they were quite good. In fact, they are two of the best French films that I've seen. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to discern the southern accent...

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de romanne, postée le 08-10-2005 à 21:17:30 (S | E)
Hello ,

Think Ourimba will have to rename his original post! I'll call it ' the best French films I've seen ' now...

Lepingouin ( funny pseudo, isn't it!) in Jean de Florette , Yves Montand who is 'le papet' has a true southern accent ...

I've thought of other films I love. Wonderful stories ( not as lighthearted as Amélie or l'Auberge espagnole though ) , great actors and actresses... I'm sure you'd like the way they speak (and act of course )

I think my favourite is 'La femme d'à côté', by François Truffaut, with Gérard Depardieu and Fanny Ardant. This actress has a very special voice and diction.

Then there is a film that was released later called 'Les Sentiments', by Noémie Lvovsky. It may be a little more difficult to understand Jean-Pierre Bacri as he speaks a bit fast. Well, I don't know.But I'm sure you'd like listening to ( and watching of course) Nathalie Baye and Isabelle Carré. They have such nice voices.

There is another one that I'll never forget. It is called ' Se souvenir des belles choses', with Isabelle Carré again. ( by Zabou Breitman )

I think Fairlie might also like 'Venus Beauté (Institut)'. Vénus Beauté is the name of the beauty parlour where it takes place . ( don't know if I should say beauty salon instead...)

Hope you can find these movies where you live.

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de kate, postée le 09-10-2005 à 16:50:43 (S | E)
I have seen most of the films you've been talking about, except "L'auberge espagnole". What is good now is that if I go to France and buy a DVD, I can watch it in England because it is the same system.

The old SECAM videos don't work properly here.

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de fairlie, postée le 09-10-2005 à 21:51:05 (S | E)
I saw Venus Beauty Institute and loved it. I am trying to remember if the young girl who has a love affair with the much older man was the same actress who played Amelie?
The worst French film I ever saw was an historic film about some man in the south of France, I think, who lived in a swamp and had to go to Paris to petition the government to do something to help his people. If I remember correctly the "higher ups" gave him a hard time but he finally won....In any case what was remarkable was that I did not understand ONE word the entire film! At one point I thought I understood something and my neighbor said "no, no he said something else altogether" Ahhhh I am now remembering that I did get "j'ai perdu mon chapeau"......but that came with many visual cues...
I think that is the key; that the action match the talking.

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de romanne, postée le 10-10-2005 à 18:36:45 (S | E)
Hello Fairlie

I can't remember the title of that film you are talking about, but I know I saw it.
Yes, this is the same actress. Her name is Audrey Tautou. She also plays in l' Auberge espagnole, and in Les Poupées Russes, and in Un Long Dimanche de Fiançailles ( A very long engagement ) ...

Réponse: Multiple versions of English de pierre61, postée le 16-10-2005 à 14:20:03 (S | E)
Hello !
I think we don't must shut in written langage so we must practise as soon as possible some software like Skype to communicate and work with our friends the 3 versions of langage because they exist in all languages !
I'm a french teacher I learn to my students (in primary school) the 3 level of language.
For exemple we can take a sentence and use the 3 levels and explain the diference.
If you want we can try so send me a message !

Bye bye !

Ce sujet est fermé, vous ne pouvez pas poster de réponse.