Preposition /What

Preposition /What

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Preposition /What
Message from a_limon posted on 05-06-2012 at 19:12:57 (D | E | F)
Hello!

Would you mind to answer me please whether it is possible to put any preposition before the pronoun "what" in a question or a narrative sentence. I think it is not possible.
For example-->
The green pencils are on the green table.
Questions-->On what table are they? On what are they are?
Narrative sentence.-->On what the green pencils are is the green table. On what the green pencils lie is the green table.

I know that prepositions might stand before "what" as an attributive pronoun. (On what animals do people usually ride?)
Thank you in advance.

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Edited by lucile83 on 05-06-2012 20:02
Your examples have no sense.

Re: Preposition /What from gerondif, posted on 05-06-2012 at 19:52:30 (D | E)
Hello,
it depends whether you use 1) modern English or 2)classical English:

1) What are you basing your assumptions on ?
2) On what are you basing your assumptions ?

1) What are you relying on ?
2) On what are you relying?

See also:

In what way is this description enigmatic ?
With what tool did you achieve such results ? (With which tool.......)

For what reason did you say that ?
At what time will you come ?
In what respect is he better than you ?

I hadn't really read your examples which are severely warped.

The green pencils are on the green table.
Which table are they on? On which table are they ?
What table are they on ? On what table are they ?

Narrative sentence: The table on which the green pencils are is the green one.

What the green pencils are on is the green table.
What the green pencils are lying on is a green table.

But the last two sentences, although grammatically correct, sound as if they have been rather heavily tortured !

Notrepère's example is great !!

I also think that sometimes, the meaning can be different:

What are you talking about ? = I don't see what you mean.
About what are you talking? The sentence sounds strange and awkward but could mean: What is the subject of your present conversation, of your conference tonight ?

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Edited by gerondif on 05-06-2012 21:00

Re: Preposition /What from notrepere, posted on 05-06-2012 at 20:22:18 (D | E)
Hello

It was once said that Churchill, having had one of his speeches altered so as not to end a sentence with a preposition, said:

“This is the sort of bloody nonsense up with which I will not put.”

Of course, there is no real evidence that Churchill actually said that. It is an urban legend. However, there is no real basis for not ending a sentence with a preposition. In fact, holding strong and hard to that rule can make English sound really ugly and ridiculous as the above example illustrates.
Link

Re: Preposition /What from a_limon, posted on 06-06-2012 at 17:15:10 (D | E)
Oh, I didn't notice the mistake here,writing the verb "are" twice.--> On what are they are? It must be On what are they?
So, if I got it right, one could use a preposition before an interrogative pronoun "what"(which). But it would look a little awkward and out-of-date. So, it is better to use the prepositions in What-questions at the end of the question.
What are they on?
What the green pencils (are lying)lie on is the green table.
What animals do people usually ride on?

Re: Preposition /What from gerondif, posted on 06-06-2012 at 17:28:44 (D | E)
Hello,
On what are they ? sounds very awkward.

But not all sentences sound old-fashioned if the proposition comes first. The exemples I gave you were usual even nowadays:

In what way is this description enigmatic ?
With what tool did you achieve such results ? (With which tool.......)

For what reason did you say that ?
At what time will you come ?
In what respect is he better than you ?

What are they on? They are on a table ok.

What the green pencils (are lying)lie on is the green table. Well, if you imagine that I am looking at a distant scene through bad binoculars, then maybe I could say:
What are the green pencils lying on ? Well, it's difficult to see but I think that what the green pencils are lying on seems to be ... a green table!! ok then

What animals do people usually ride on? They usually ride on horses, don't they ? Unless you are taking me for a ride !

Re: Preposition /What from a_limon, posted on 06-06-2012 at 17:47:04 (D | E)
Ok, gerondif.
It seems that if we have deal with phrasal verbs, then it is better not to put the particle of the phrasal verb before"what".
If one does it, it looks awkward,doesn't it? ("ride on","be on"-are phrasal verbs.)

Re: Preposition /What from gerondif, posted on 06-06-2012 at 17:56:13 (D | E)
Hello!

("ride on","be on"-are phrasal verbs.) NO !

I am riding on a horse, on a horse is a location, just as in: I am walking on the pavement.

Where is the pen ? The pen is on the box. Same thing.

Re: Preposition /What from a_limon, posted on 06-06-2012 at 18:21:05 (D | E)
Well,I don't know then what it depends on. Maybe some prepositions (not "on") might be used before "what" in modern way..What about "over"?

Re: Preposition /What from a_limon, posted on 07-06-2012 at 00:14:41 (D | E)
gerondif, you so cute. ha,ha. I would take you for a ride with a big pleasure if only I could drive the horse.

Re: Preposition /What from gerondif, posted on 07-06-2012 at 00:29:41 (D | E)
Hello,
You don't "drive" a horse, you "ride" it with both legs on either side of the animal.
I used the expression with the meaning of: to joke, to tell somebody stories, tall tales.
It can also mean "to take somebody in one's car" although you don't ride a car, I think the expression survived from the days when people actually rode horses to travel.

"over" would make no difference to your problem:
I wonder what new difficulty you are pondering over now !

Re: Preposition /What from a_limon, posted on 07-06-2012 at 00:38:33 (D | E)
As to sentences like: In what way is this description enigmatic ?
With what tool did you achieve such results ? (With which tool.......)
For what reason did you say that ?
At what time will you come ?
In what respect is he better than you ?
I think the sentences like; "You achieve such results! You say that. You will come. He is better than you." can exist without additional clarifications. That is why prepositions could be separated with them in question."With what tool", "At what time", "In what respect".
But the sentences "People ride on the horse. The pencils are on the table." are completed if only a prepositional complement
is used in them. You wouldn't just say "People ride (on)" or "The pencils are". That is why these phrases in the sentences seems awkward.

Re: Preposition /What from gerondif, posted on 07-06-2012 at 00:48:52 (D | E)
Well,

On what do you base such assumptions ?

I have a feeling you complicate things where there are no particular difficulties. If Russian is your native language, are things that complicated in Russian ?

Re: Preposition /What from a_limon, posted on 07-06-2012 at 00:56:08 (D | E)
You mean Are there things that complicated in Russian ?
Yes, there are. But I didn't think about it.

Re: Preposition /What from traviskidd, posted on 09-06-2012 at 09:48:18 (D | E)
Hello.

You can think of "In what way" as a fixed question phrase replaceable by "How" (hence "What way ... in" is in fact the more awkward of the two.)

The way I had heard Churchill's sentence was "Ending a sentence in a preposition is something up with which I will not put!", which would obviously have been said sarcastically.

He could have (awkwardly) said "...with which I will not put up". However, you cannot separate a phrasal verb from its particle (except to put the object (if it exists) in between), so "up with which I will not put" is in fact incorrect.

See you.

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